Ukraine War Watch Thread

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funkervogt
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by funkervogt »

Ukrainian commander demoted after admitting to high losses and other problems facing his unit.
The battalion commander, known by his call sign Kupol, gave an unusually frank assessment of Ukrainian losses in an interview from the front lines earlier this week.

He revealed that all of the original 500 soldiers in his unit had either been killed or injured, a rare acknowledgement from inside the Ukrainian ranks, where losses are kept strictly confidential.

The Ukrainian high command is at pains to present a positive spin on the increasingly bloody defence of the east of the country. US officials have estimated that the Ukrainian army may have taken 120,000 casualties compared with 200,000 by the Russian army.

Kupol told the Washington Post this week that the Ukrainian army training was often poor and that some of the rookie replacements didn’t know how to throw a hand grenade or fire a rifle.

Others had abandoned their positions shortly after arriving at the front line, he said.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukrainian-co ... 52957.html

This makes me wonder how biased our view of the Ukraine War is in the West thanks to not being told about Ukraine's problems and losses.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by caltrek »

ibm9000 wrote: Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:06 pm
ICC judges issue arrest warrant for Putin over war crimes in Ukraine
Putin too.
Pinochet almost.
Any war crimes in any other "criminal and illegal invasion"?

I don't know about Justice, but it doesn't look like fair-play.
...
Since you asked, here is a list of 31 cases of "war crimes" pursued by the ICC (see link provided below). Presumably, many, if not all, of these cases may have involved civil wars rather than invasion. Remember, the court was established in 1989. There have not been a whole lot of "invasions" since that year, hence the low or nonexistent number of war crimes involving "invasions".

https://www.icc-cpi.int/cases?cases_ful ... All&page=0
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Maybe we (NATO) are training them, because they don't have enough people to provide that training.
*A necessary truth that Ukrainian leaders are unwilling to hear.
...
*The quality of Ukraine’s military force, once considered (or supposed) a substantial advantage over Russia, has been degraded by a year of casualties, leading some Ukrainian officials to question Kyiv’s readiness to mount a much-anticipated spring offensive.
...
*An influx of inexperienced draftees has changed the profile of the Ukrainian force, which is also suffering from basic shortages of ammunition, including artillery shells and mortar bombs, according to military personnel in the field.
...
*One senior Ukrainian government official called the number of tanks promised by the West a “symbolic” amount. Others privately voiced pessimism that promised supplies would even reach the battlefield in time. “If you have more resources, you more actively attack, if you have fewer resources, you defend more. We’re going to defend. That’s why if you ask me personally, I don’t believe in a big counteroffensive for us. I’d like to believe in it, but I’m looking at the resources and asking, ‘With what?’ Maybe we’ll have some localized breakthroughs.”
...
*Hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers in units fighting alongside his (Kupol) battalion simply abandoned their positions.
...
*Despite reports of untrained mobilized Russian fighters being thrown into battle, those now arriving are well-prepared.
...
*U.S. military officials consider Ukraine’s force insufficient to attack all along the giant front, where Russia has erected substantive defenses, so troops are being trained to probe for weak points that allow them to break through with tanks and armored vehicles. (They just discovered WW2!).
The Washington Post. (Obviously working for Russia).

By the way...
Not even 400 (155) rounds a day, for the whole front!
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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Remember, the court was established in 1989.
Including Bush & Blair, of course... No, wait, they were not responsible of anything, anything at all.

P. S. Please let me know if you need more of my words to imagine what I mean with these words.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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Wait... now that I read my own words...
I was asking about "any other criminal and illegal invasion", correct?

P. S. I am sure that you know exactly what I meant.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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Ukraine using the "shahid", an updated version of the WW2 German Goliath, a video of an Ukainian MRL hit by a drone... These things affect the war? No, just anecdotes.
Repeating Bakhmut at Avdiivka could, attrition for both sides and another active front for Ukraine. Meaning a huge expenditure of replacements, missiles, artillery, tanks... and U. is the side without "le gros bataillons".
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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The Guardian view on the forgotten Rohingya refugees: lives without futures.
(Bad lack for the baby-seals, this is the 'Save the dolphins' year).
It goes beyond hypocrisy. It’s an assault on memory. Gordon Brown, calling for a special tribunal to punish the Russian government, correctly states that an act of aggression – invading another nation – was identified by the Nuremberg tribunal as “the supreme international crime”. It is, he wrote in the Guardian, not just Vladimir Putin who should be prosecuted, but also his “henchmen”. These include members of the Russian and perhaps Belarusian national security councils, and a range of political and military leaders. All should be held to account for this “manifestly illegal war”, he wrote on his website.
Condoleezza Rice, who was George W Bush’s national security adviser, was asked of Russia’s aggression on Fox News, “when you invade a sovereign nation, that is a war crime?” She replied: “It is certainly against every principle of international law and international order.”
Brown and Rice are right about Russia. Its government, in invading Ukraine, has clearly committed the crime of aggression, a crime in which, as Brown points out, its senior officials are complicit. The same applies to the US and UK governments, which invaded Iraq 20 years ago today. Among the most senior perpetrators were Rice and Brown.
The seventh of the Nuremberg Principles, which Brown cites in calling for Russian prosecutions, points out that “complicity” in a war of aggression “is a crime under international law”. Both officials would clearly qualify as complicit. Rice was one of the architects of the war. Brown, as a cabinet member, was party to the decision. As chancellor of the exchequer, he financed the war.
No one can credibly deny that the invasion of Iraq met the Nuremberg definition. The Chilcot inquiry, whose terms were set by Brown when he was prime minister, was forbidden to pronounce on the legality of the war. But it concluded that “the UK chose to join the invasion of Iraq before the peaceful options for disarmament had been exhausted. Military action at that time was not a last resort.” In other words, it failed to meet the UN charter’s criteria for legal warfare. The former law lord, Lord Steyn, came to the same conclusion: “In the absence of a second UN resolution authorising invasion, it was illegal”. The former lord chief justice, Lord Bingham, called the Iraq war “a serious violation of international law”. A Dutch inquiry, led by a former supreme court judge, found that the invasion had “no sound mandate in international law”.
The attackers went out of their way to eliminate peaceful alternatives. Saddam Hussein desperately sought to negotiate, eventually offering everything the US and UK governments said they wanted, but they slapped his hand away, then lied to us about it. When the UN sought diplomatic solutions, US officials went into what they called “thwart mode”, sabotaging negotiations.
When the head of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, José Bustani, offered to resolve the impasse over weapons inspections in Iraq, the US government illegally ousted him. The first government to support his sacking was the United Kingdom’s.
The government in which Brown was chancellor was repeatedly warned that its planned invasion would be illegal. A year before the war, the then foreign secretary, Jack Straw, explained that for a war to be legal, “i) There must be an armed attack upon a State or such an attack must be imminent; ii) The use of force must be necessary and other means to reverse/avert the attack must be unavailable; iii) The acts in self-defence must be proportionate and strictly confined to the object of stopping the attack”. None of these conditions applied. The Foreign Office, according to its deputy legal adviser, Elizabeth Wilmshurst, consistently counselled that an invasion would be unlawful without a new UN resolution. She explained that “an unlawful use of force on such a scale amounts to the crime of aggression”. A Cabinet Office memo warned: “A legal justification for invasion would be needed. Subject to Law Officers’ advice, none currently exists.”
As for “law officers’ advice”, the then attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, warned that there were only three ways in which an invasion could be legally justified. They were “self-defence, humanitarian intervention, or UNSC [UN security council] authorisation. The first and second could not be the base in this case.” The government failed to obtain UN security council authorisation. At the Chilcot inquiry, Lord Goldsmith testified that, after he gave advice Tony Blair didn’t want to hear, the prime minister stopped asking. Just before the war, though the facts had not changed, Goldsmith changed his mind.
There is another way of saying “crime of aggression”: an act of mass murder. The invasion of Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of people. We cannot be more precise than that, as the invading forces refused to measure the carnage. But it is almost certainly the greatest crime against humanity so far this century. Blair, Brown, Bush and Rice are as guilty of a “manifestly illegal war” as Putin and his close advisers.
But who gets prosecuted is a matter of victors’ justice. For example, until it issued a warrant last week on another charge for the arrest of Putin and one of his officials, there had been 31 cases brought before the international criminal court. Every one of the defendants in these cases is African. Is this because Africa is the only continent where crimes against humanity had occurred? No. It’s because Africans accused of such crimes do not enjoy the political protections afforded to the western leaders who perpetrate even greater atrocities.
Instead of facing justice, the killers walk among us, respected, revered, treated as the elder statesmen to whom media and governments turn for counsel. Brown can pose as an august humanitarian. Alastair Campbell, who oversaw the compilation of the “dodgy dossier”, which provided a false case for war, and is therefore as complicit as any of Putin’s “henchmen”, has been thoroughly screenwashed: in other words, rehabilitated, like other grim political figures, by television. He is now treated as a kind of national agony uncle.
There has been no reckoning and nor will there be. This greatest of crimes has been so thoroughly airbrushed that its perpetrators can anoint themselves the avenging angels of other people’s atrocities. To quote King Lear: “Plate sin with gold, and the strong lance of justice hurtless breaks: arm it in rags, a pigmy’s straw does pierce it.”
George Monbiot is a Guardian columnist.

Ukraine needs to launch a major counteroffensive within the next few months.
"The window of opportunity is open this year. After next winter, it will be extremely difficult to maintain the current level of assistance, war fatigue is not only the exhaustion of human resources and equipment, the destruction of infrastructure in Ukraine, but also fatigue in the countries that provide aid." Many countries expect "some progress" this year.
"I think Ukraine will have only one attempt to carry out a major counteroffensive, therefore, if (Ukraine) decides to launch a counteroffensive and it fails, it will be extremely difficult to get funding for the next one."
Czech President Petr Pavel.
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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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Ok, that cuts it. I am so tired of the same "what-about" effort to derail this thread and talk about anything but the war in Ukraine. I am also tired of my suggestion to start a thread on the topic of the Iraq invasion under Bush and company being ignored. So, I have started a thread on that invasion. Provisionally, I have nothing further to say on the comparison between the two made in this thread. That theme has been beaten to death and beyond.
I am more interested in understanding this war and the consequences for Ukrainians and Europeans. Talking about Iraq simply does not address that concern. Discussing the invasion of Iraq is a valid topic. Hence my dedicating a thread to that discussion.

https://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/vi ... 103#p34103
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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I am more interested in understanding this war and the consequences for...
To understand this war, you have to understand war. To understand consequences, I think it is a good idea to have a look at past consequences of war, any war.
(and the Rohingya, let's not forget them; as refugees, as a consequence of war).
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:46 pm
The Guardian view on the forgotten Rohingya refugees: lives without futures.
(Bad lack for the baby-seals, this is the 'Save the dolphins' year).

ibm9000, please stay within the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss a matter outside of Ukraine, please use the appropriate thread or create one if it doesn't exist. This is not the first time I've asked you. :roll:
To know is essentially the same as not knowing. The only thing that occurs is the rearrangement of atoms in your brain.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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To understand this war, you have to understand war. To understand its consequences, I think it is a good idea to have a look at past consequences of war, any war.
...and the consequences for Ukrainians and Europeans.
Do you mean than China and the States are completely unrelated to this topic?
(I would say Ukrainians are Europeans).
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:56 pm
I am more interested in understanding this war and the consequences for...
To understand this war, you have to understand war. To understand consequences, I think it is a good idea to have a look at past consequences of war, any war.
...
I don't disagree with you. The point that you keep missing is that is why we have a history section to this forum. A place where historical events can be examined and lessons extracted from a discussion of those events. So, my argument with you is concerning the best way to go about looking "at past consequences of war". Not whether we should look toward history to explore such questions.

Again, if we are going to discuss the Ukraine, then let us discuss the Ukraine. If we are going to discuss Iraq, then let us discuss Iraq. What I don't think we need to do is clutter up this thread with a discussion of Iraq and nothing but Iraq. We are then faced with either letting false equivalencies being stated without rebuttal or further context; or diverting our discussion away from the Ukraine within a thread dedicated to examining the present war in that country. Methodologically, that just does not make sense.

Now if you think my assessment as to false equivalencies is incorrect, then take that up in the Iraq thread, not here. Why?

Because, in part and as I have said before, that point has already been made in prior pages of this thread and/or it will emerge naturally within a thread dedicated to Iraq. A proper and detailed discussion of how the invasion of Iraq relates to present circumstances belongs in a thread concerning Iraq. Period.
Don't mourn, organize.

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caltrek
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:56 pm To understand this war, you have to understand war. To understand its consequences, I think it is a good idea to have a look at past consequences of war, any war.
...and the consequences for Ukrainians and Europeans.
Do you mean than China and the States are completely unrelated to this topic?
(I would say Ukrainians are Europeans).
No, but again we have threads dedicated toward discussing China, threads dedicated to discussing the United States, and even threads dedicated to relations between the United States and China. So a lot of discussion regarding that relationship can and should be carried out in those threads. For example, we have a thread dedicated to discussion of NATO, a treaty organization that involves United States membership. I started that thread because understanding NATO is a very important aspect of understanding the present conflict. Having a separate thread on NATO allows for a more focused discussion of topic, while allowing a more general overview of the progress of the war in the Ukraine to proceed within this thread.

Honestly, I do not understand why you are having such a difficulty understanding the desirability of this approach. Now, if you started getting a lot of "likes" for your position (that is comments in defense of your approach), and I started getting a lot of negative feedback from the moderators of this forum, I would reconsider my position. Since that does not seem to be the case...
Don't mourn, organize.

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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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Polish Ambassador to France: Poland will be forced to enter war if Ukraine fails to defend itself
Source: Ukrainska Pravda

Poland’s Ambassador to France Jan Emeryk Rościszewski said in an interview that a situation could arise in which Poland would have to enter the war. The embassy urged audiences to refrain from sensationalising his words.

Quote from Rościszewski: "It is not NATO, Poland or Slovakia that are mounting ever more pressure, but Russia, which has invaded Ukraine. Russia, which is seizing its territories. Russia, which is killing its people. And Russia, which is abducting Ukrainian children.

Therefore, either Ukraine will defend its independence today, or we will have to enter this conflict. Because our main values, which were the basis of our civilization and our culture will be threatened. Therefore, we will have no choice but to enter the conflict."

Details: Following the ambassador’s remark, Poland’s Embassy in France issued a statement saying that it has been interpreted by some media "out of context".


Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/polish-ambas ... 21342.html
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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...within the topic of this thread.
It would seem that my scope of this topic is a bit wider.
Peace proposal from China, off topic? America arms sales, off topic?

I have made references to Indochina and the Pentagon Papers, that war seems to be all right, for some reason.

I am not here for the likes, some comments seem to forget that any invasion ever happened before.
...a situation could arise in which Poland would have to enter the war.
Is that a threat?, or it really depends from what side the comment is coming?
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by raklian »

ibm9000 wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:06 pm
...within the topic of this thread.
It would seem that my scope of this topic is a bit wider.
Peace proposal from China, off topic? America arms sales, off topic?

I have made references to Indochina and the Pentagon Papers, that war seems to be all right, for some reason.

I am not here for the likes, some comments seem to forget that any invasion ever happened before.
Don't make this more difficult than it needs to be, trying to put in the last word, or I might think you're not taking my warning seriously. Please take the chance to heed it. I'd like to avoid doing something I don't want to do as a moderator if I can help it. :|
To know is essentially the same as not knowing. The only thing that occurs is the rearrangement of atoms in your brain.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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- Yes, you are right, someone has to have the last word.

- Everyone can stop reading as soon as they find the word "Iraq"; they can even skip the post because it is my post.

- Having only one opinion would make things a lot easier, if that is the point; and yes, this is off topic.

But, what are exactly the limits of this topic?, why I cannot mention the ACW even if I think that it is the same situation.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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ibm9000 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:40 am - Yes, you are right, someone has to have the last word.

- Everyone can stop reading as soon as they find the word "Iraq"; they can even skip the post because it is my post.

- Having only one opinion would make things a lot easier, if that is the point; and yes, this is off topic.

But, what are exactly the limits of this topic?, why I cannot mention the ACW even if I think that it is the same situation.
My instruction wasn't that ambiguous. I'll say it again. Stay on the topic of Ukraine's war with Russia without making references to other concurrent or historical events unless there is a clear logical or chronological sequence tying them together. Making comparisons to other events to argue a point or a personal opinion is straying from the spirit of this thread and confusing to readers who arrive here for the first time, so that should be better discussed at a different thread with the appropriate topic. There is no issue if you create your own and continue on with what you left off here. I'm sure there will be some of us who will be more than glad to debate/discuss with you on this issue over there without restrictions. I urge you to make it easier on yourself and us so that we can actually move on to an acceptable compromise and end this persistent issue once and for all.
To know is essentially the same as not knowing. The only thing that occurs is the rearrangement of atoms in your brain.
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

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One year into the war in Ukraine, it has become clear that neither side is strong enough to win the war nor weak enough to sue for peace. (As long as we keep providing the weapons).
Ukraine would need to recover roughly twice as much territory as it was able to (by being abandoned by Russia) last year, just to get back the lands conquered since the 2022 invasion.
Russia has also been able to stabilize its economy, which the IMF projects will do better this year than the UK's or Germany's. There is now a huge world economy that does not include the West, and Russia can swim in those waters freely. (Are we going to tell the World what to do?).
So, what is the path forward? In the short run, there is only one answer for the West and its allies... give Ukraine more weapons and money. (Like WWI, the next one (offensive) is the right one). Most wars end in negotiations. This one is unlikely to be different. The task for the West is to ensure that Ukraine has enough success and momentum on the battlefield that it enters those negotiations with a very strong hand. (Or not, but let the killing go on).
Ukraine's government is spending more than double what it takes in, thanks to Western aid. (Vietnam, and then the US left). Are we letting Ukraine get destroyed in order to save it?
CNN.
Let’s say that you own a house and it has ten rooms. And let’s say that I barge in and take two of those rooms away, and I wreck those rooms. And, from those two rooms, I’m wrecking your other eight rooms and you’re trying to beat me back. You’re trying to evict me from the two rooms. You push out a little corner, you push out another corner, maybe. But I’m still there and I’m still wrecking. And the thing is, you need your house. That’s where you live. It’s your house and you don’t have another. Me, I’ve got another house, and my other house has a thousand rooms. And, so, if I wreck your house, are you winning or am I winning?
At peak, the Ukrainians were firing upward of ninety thousand artillery shells a month. U.S. monthly production of artillery shells is fifteen thousand. With all our allies thrown in, you get another fifteen thousand, at the highest estimates. So you can do thirty thousand in the production of artillery shells while expending ninety thousand a month. We haven’t ramped up. We’re just drawing down the stocks. And you know what? We’re running out.
The New Yorker.
Ukrainians may be better off defining victory as accession to the European Union rather than a complete recapture of all Ukrainian territory.
Stephen Kotkin.
A new poll suggests that Russia’s war on Ukraine has consolidated ‘the West;’ European and American citizens hold many views in common about major global questions.
Europeans and Americans agree they should help Ukraine to win, that Russia is their avowed adversary, and that the coming global order will most likely be defined by two blocs led respectively by the US and China.
In contrast, citizens in China, India, and Turkiye prefer a quick end to the war even if Ukraine has to concede territory.
People in these non-Western countries, and in Russia, also consider the emergence of a multipolar world order to be more probable than a bipolar arrangement.
Western decision-makers should take into account that the consolidation of the West is taking place in an increasingly divided post-Western world; and that emerging powers such as India and Turkiye will act on their own terms and resist being caught in a battle between America and China.
The ECFR Council.

Is this thread only about the consequences for Europe? (The United States has a $19 billion backlog of arms delivery to Taiwan).
There are more than those fantasy-tweets (even if they are not around here that often now),, and things are not getting any better.
...unless there is a clear logical (the spirit of this thread) or chronological sequence tying them together.
If by "spirit" you mean "is dedicated to", 'the backlog of arms delivery', due to the war in Ukraine, is on topic? The thread is: "Ukraine War Watch", so the war in Ukraine; and I don't think the word "spirit" was the best option, but I do think there is a lot of ambiguity.
The situation in Taiwan now, due to that backlog, belongs only to a China/Taiwan thread? Only to this one as a consequence of this war? I think it belongs to both, and I think we are going to agree to differ. We might agree about how deep into the other conflict we should go here, again, your opinion about how much or my opinion about it; as clear for you as it is for me. Censorship after, not before.

(Unless someone can guide me into the right path to the "spirit").
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Re: Ukraine War Watch Thread

Post by ibm9000 »

Like in WWII, the willingness to go on with the war increases with the distance.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/taljciwaqfk50d8/ftrr.jpg?dl=0
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